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story category What's Behind Comcast's Sudden Love of P2P
Comcast's new master plan kills multiple birds with one stone
01:53PM Thursday May 22 2008 by Karl Bode
tags: business · bandwidth · cable · networking · net-neutrality · Comcast
In less than a year, Comcast has gone from a company that was using forged packets to throttle upstream P2P, to one that's promising to embrace P2P as if it were a long lost Uncle. The company has been heavily promoting their involvement in the development of a new "P4P" architecture by Pando Networks that only serves file parts from local peers to reduce hops. The coalition involves some fifty organizations, including AT&T, Verizon and many P2P vendors.

Pando and the new coalition believes they can speed up P2P transfers by as much as 235% across US cable networks and up to 898% across international broadband networks. In Verizon tests, Pando increased the percentage of data routed internally across their networks from 2.2% to 43.4%, which they claim reduced inter-ISP data transfers by an average of 34% (up to 43.8 % in the US and 75.1% internationally).

Comcast's involvement in the Pando P2P trials falls under the umbrella of the Distributed Computing Industry Association, which Comcast just joined in order to develop a "new framework" of systematic cooperation between P2P vendors and ISPs. Comcast this week also began investing in Seattle-based startup GridNetworks, which focuses on P2P video delivery. Next month they'll expand Pando testing. Why the sudden P2P love?

The FCC investigation of Comcast's traffic shaping (and the beating the took from network neutrality advocates) obviously started the ball rolling. But alongside the desire to improve P2P efficiency, I'd argue we're seeing a new and highly coordinated effort to eradicicate a problem for congested ISPs, content creators, and legit P2P delivery outfits: piracy. When Comcast joined the DCIA, Comcast CTO Tony Werner's language was telling:
"By having this framework in place, we will help P2P companies, ISPs and content owners find common ground to support consumers who want to use P2P applications to deliver legal content."
"By having this framework in place, we will help P2P companies, ISPs and content owners find common ground to support consumers who want to use P2P applications to deliver legal content."
-Comcast CTO Tony Werner
In short, Comcast customers who want to use P2P to trade copyrighted files are about to either become second class citizens, or find themselves booted from the Comcast network entirely (I'll get to that in a second).

Comcast's P2P lovesicle also goes hand in hand with a massive new billing shift. While Comcast preaches their love of P2P, the company continues to throttle upstream P2P traffic and will until the end of the year. At that point, the company is currently considering implementing a 250GB usage cap, while penalizing customers for over-use.

Comcast lawyers recently realized that instead of employing throttling techniques that anger network neutrality advocates, they can cure congestion problems by prioritizing their own P2P traffic (or P2P traffic from preferred, legal vendors), while leaving regular P2P traffic alone, but picking off pirates one at a time. As an internal source recently told me, Comcast wants to begin terminating the accounts of users who receive four DMCA warning letters per year.

Comcast solves their congestion problems, gains added revenue from charging over-use fees (and P4P use?), prevents piracy from competing with their own content, gets the FCC off their back, and gets to tell anyone who doesn't like it that they're simply fighting for justice. It's really a fairly ingenious way to solve what's been a disastrous PR problem, but it does raise a number of questions I know won't be asked by the tech media until it's too late:

•Will ISPs charge customers to use P4P?

•Do participating ISPs plan to throttle "illegal" P2P traffic, or block access to certain websites (Pirate Bay comes to mind)?

•What exactly determines what kind of content gets the honor of being transmitted over the P4P network?

•What do non-coalition P2P video delivery members have to do in order to play with the major ISPs? Are we making ISPs P2P content gatekeepers and making speedy P2P delivery "pay to play"?

•Do ISPs intend on forcing users who want to use P2P to use their P4P network? Can I get that in writing?

•Will the ISPs' new P4P project track what content is being shared and penalize users for sharing that copyrighted Air Supply album?

•Does part of the design involve making tracking easier for the MPAA & RIAA?

•Care to publish the client source code?

I hope to talk with ISPs, P2P companies and Pando Networks over the next few months in order to get a more complete picture of what's clearly a major shift in the industry. I'd keep a close eye on this: the P4P plan is about much more than just building a better mousetrap.

Related:
  1. Comcast Sued For Traffic Shaping
  2. The EFF 'Test Your ISP' Project
  3. Comcast Unfazed By Traffic Shaping Media Heat
  4. NY Attorney General Investigating Comcast
  5. Comcast Gets Investigated While Cox Gets Free Pass
  6. Beating Comcast's Sandvine On Linux With Iptables
  7. Comcast Expands Switched Digital Video Trials
  8. Comcast Pays Florida $150K For Misleading Consumers
Forums » What's Behind Comcast's Sudden Love of P2P
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justbits
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"legal content"

How will they tell the difference between legal and illegal content?

knightmb

join:2003-12-01
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Re: "legal content"

said by justbits See Profile :

How will they tell the difference between legal and illegal content?
Let me offer this info as an ISP independent of the "big" ones. As a small ISP, I get to chat with a lot of customers. What's the number one thing they want to do? It's either watch streaming video, games, or P2P.

How do we handle all of that?

First, anyone that wants to do P2P need only let us know and we will open up a custom port just for them so they can get maximum p2p speeds. The advantage of this is that we know exactly where all of the p2p traffic is going and can traffic shape it so that during non-peak times it's "all you can eat" and during peak times they get scaled back to allow the casual web surfers and e-mail users do their daily routine without much interruption.

Second, streaming video, is another traffic shaping option where we see that people are dropping either (cable/satellite) because they can almost watch all of their favorite shows online now. Not online as in, piracy, but as in from the official websites to their favorite channels. I know of two customers that dropped their cable TV because they could watch all the same shows online with less or no commercials. It's very easy to get your PC/laptop hooked right into your TV, so that's one reason for those situations.

Third, games. Online games don't require a lot of bandwidth (compared to everything else), not talking about game files or anything, but the real-time data that games use (usually almost all UDP based), it's another simple traffic shaping rule that small UDP packets get higher priority to avoid interruption during congestion.

Finally, our traffic shaping isn't delay based, it's pipe based. So what that means is, all things being equal, we only traffic shape the pipe speed of the user based on what they are doing. That means if we only had 54 mbps available to 100 customers, traffic shaping only affects the throughput of the user, not the latency or delay/dropped packets, etc. So if 1 user was (in theory, we don't offer 54 mbps service ) using all 54 mbps for his p2p application and Joe Average wanted to go check the latest sport scores at cnn.com, then Joe Average gets an equal cut of bandwidth only up to what they actually use. So if 53 Joe Average all wanted to check a website at exactly the same time, then in theory that would 1 Mbps per user. So what about the p2p guy? Well, his p2p is traffic shaped on pipe, so it's not that connections would start dropping or getting hacked reset packets, it would only mean his throughput pipe would be reduced to either 1 Mbps or less until the others were finished. The pipe encompasses *all* of his connections on the p2p, so this eliminates the problem of "p2p user open so many connections, they hog all the bandwidth" issue that other types of traffic shaping hardware has when going state based instead of pipe based. The best way to look at it is weight based shaping. The higher the "weight", the more bandwidth it gets during "crunch" times and the less "weight" it has, the less bandwidth it gets during "crunch" times. But the overall benefit is, you don't have to hack up everyone's packets and try to figure out if packet A should get there faster than Packet B. You just send everything as fast as you can and when crunch times hits (link saturation as we call it), then start looking at what the user is doing and merely tell the packets something like "Packet A is for P2P, Packet B is for Blah.com; so Packet B you go ahead and Packet A, you go ahead too, but just a smaller size until Packet B is done, then go ahead at full size"

Yeah, I think I went a bit over the technical side, but my point is that the software/hardware to make P2P users life easier as compared to the network as a whole is very easy to set up and use if the bigger companies would just take the time to do it.

Oh yeah, all the software is free too since it's open source, go figure.

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Robb
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Re: "legal content"

That was a very cool post! Don't apologize for being too technical -- this is DSLReports, not Romper Room. If they can't keep up technically, then they should do what everybody does when they don't understand -- ask (or feign understanding).

So I'm going to ask.

Does your plan work with streaming P2P models like Vuze, BitTorrent, or Pando currently use? Or is it a matter of how the user sets up his client?

What is the OSS that you use to do the "pipe based" shaping?

Are you a WISP?

Thanks again -- great input! I miss the DSLReports of old where a lot of the talk was like that!
--
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HTTP is the new Bandwidth Hog...
yabos

join:2003-02-16
Ingersoll, ON

That's what I have been saying the big ISPs should do for a long time. QOS the torrents and whatever else to low priority so other traffic doesn't get held up. I do this at home and can download full speed from nntp with 8 simultaneous connections and when http comes along, even downloading a huge file over http, nntp goes to basically zero until http is done. It took me a little bit to figure it all out but it's working great on the WRT54GL that I bought.

funchords
Robb
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Hillsboro, OR

Re: "legal content"

I'm fine with that suggestion as long as the USERS (actually, their apps) decide what packets to give the lower priority markings to. Then Comcast can obey those markings (RFC2474).
patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY

Re: "legal content"

said by funchords See Profile :

I'm fine with that suggestion as long as the USERS (actually, their apps) decide what packets to give the lower priority markings to. Then Comcast can obey those markings (RFC2474).
Way too open to abuse. What if someone decides to mark torrent traffic with a tag used for VOIP?

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Robb
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edit:
May 25th, @02:39PM

Re: "legal content"

said by patcat88 See Profile :

said by funchords See Profile :

I'm fine with that suggestion as long as the USERS (actually, their apps) decide what packets to give the lower priority markings to. Then Comcast can obey those markings (RFC2474).
Way too open to abuse. What if someone decides to mark torrent traffic with a tag used for VOIP?
You don't tag by "type" (torrent, VOIP) but by priority (Expedited, Assured, Normal). But your observation and question is still a valid one.

If someone wants to tag their torrents Expedited, that's their business but it's easily solved and its covered in the RFC2474.

ISPs simply need to allocate a certain number of bytes/hr. (or percentage, or per day or however they want to dice it up) as the quota for priority handling, then when that quota gets reached, everything on that account gets the default "best-effort" normal handling.

Some torrent traffic is being watched "in real time" like a streaming video (BitTorrent, Vuze, Pando, and Podcasting are all services that do this). So users would want to tag this kind of download higher than normal background file transfers (but probably not as high as VOIP).

G711 = consumes 90 kbps or around 40MB per hour. So if there was a limit of 200MB of Expedited Forwarding a day, you could talk on the phone for 5 hours without ever hitting the limit. You wouldn't be torrenting very long before you hit that limit. Either way, once the limit is hit, you're not cut off -- you're just not "expedited" anymore.

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HTTP is the new Bandwidth Hog...
patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY

Re: "legal content"

QOSing is the right solution. All spare bandwidth left over after all higher priority is used up should be available for torrenting. I should definetly be able to get my line maxed out at 3 AM in the morning.

But no ISPs are respectfull enough to do it. »broadband.mpi-sws.mpg.de/transpa···results/

RSTs flow equally at all times of the day.

TK Junk Mail
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Legal P2P will be fostered; illegal P2P will be punished

In short, Comcast customers who want to use P2P to trade copyrighted files are about to either become second class citizens, or find themselves booted from the Comcast network entirely.
Copyright infringement should be booted from the network. And while many say ISPs should stay out of being copyright cops, it is the best place to put an end to that practice.

By fostering legal P2P products and services, Comcast will be able to optimize the network without suffering the bad effects of unbridled growth. And by charging more for those who fit the profile of the top .1% of bandwidth users, they can fund further expansion of network capacity.
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digitalfreak
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Re: Legal P2P will be fostered; illegal P2P will be punished

said by TK Junk Mail See Profile :

And by charging more for those who fit the profile of the top .1% of bandwidth users, they can fund further expansion of network capacity.
LOL. They don't want to expand network capacity. They want folks to pay more for less.

dvd536
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Re: Legal P2P will be fostered; illegal P2P will be punished

said by digitalfreak See Profile :

said by TK Junk Mail See Profile :

And by charging more for those who fit the profile of the top .1% of bandwidth users, they can fund further expansion of network capacity.
LOL. They don't want to expand network capacity. They want folks to pay more for less.
BINGO!
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rolande
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said by digitalfreak See Profile :

They don't want to expand network capacity. They want folks to pay more for less.
The problem here is that consumers pay an extremely bargain rate for the bandwidth they receive regardless of Cable/DSL/Satellite/WISP etc. and the ISP's can't turn a profit if they have to pay for premium rate bandwidth on their end with no ability to oversubscribe on the consumer's side. As the consumers start to utilize more and more of the bandwidth they have access to, the law of economics comes to bear. Either they will force you to pay significantly more for the same access, cut your access down considerably to match the price, or find a happy medium where you pay a rate somewhat in the ballpark of what the average user is consuming.

There is a joke in here somewhere about the busload of fat people showing up to the All-You-Can-Eat Buffet.
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swhx7
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Why would they ever invest in network capacity?

The only time that happens is when there's competition in the local broadband market. And if there is one other provider, they'll invest just enough to equal or slightly exceed its offering, and not a cent more.

If there's no competition or only an oligopoly in the local market (the "last mile"), it will be more profitable for the ISP to charge more and more, make more restrictive policies, and never improve anything for the customers. In fact, they can and do spend money on preventing competition instead of improving the network.

TK Junk Mail
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Re: Legal P2P will be fostered; illegal P2P will be punished

said by swhx7 See Profile :

Why would they ever invest in network capacity?

The only time that happens is when there's competition in the local broadband market. And if there is one other provider, they'll invest just enough to equal or slightly exceed its offering, and not a cent more.
If you look at their qtrly and annual reports you would see they invest on average $1 billion a year in infrastructure. So all these claims that Comcast never invests are pure nonsense.
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swhx7
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Re: Legal P2P will be fostered; illegal P2P will be punished

Those numbers include building out to new markets and maintaining existing infrastructure. How much of it is for increasing capacity? It doesn't make sense for any big ISP to improve the "last mile" (where all of the notorious congestion is) unless a competitor is drawing away customers.
openbox9

join:2004-01-26
Navarre, FL

Re: Legal P2P will be fostered; illegal P2P will be punished

It seems to me that all of the well known ISPs are routinely announcing "last mile" improvements. Comcast is bringing DOCSIS 3, AT&T continues to extend fiber and deploy VDSL, Verizon continues the FiOS rollout, etc. What am I missing?
patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY

Re: Legal P2P will be fostered; illegal P2P will be punished

said by openbox9 See Profile :

It seems to me that all of the well known ISPs are routinely announcing "last mile" improvements. Comcast is bringing DOCSIS 3, AT&T continues to extend fiber and deploy VDSL, Verizon continues the FiOS rollout, etc. What am I missing?
To a special 1% of their customers who are rich and live in ideallic suburbs. FiOS is only available to 28% of Verizon landline customers as of 2007 Q4.

Comcast won't deploy DOCSIS 3 unless there is Uverse/FiOS competition in the market.
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Re: Legal P2P will be fostered; illegal P2P will be punished

said by patcat88 See Profile :

FiOS is only available to 28% of Verizon landline customers as of 2007 Q4.
Wow, only 28% in 2007 Q4? Considering the VZ only started deploying FiOS in 2004, I'd suggest that upgrading 1/4 of their "last mile" infrastructure in merely three years is extremely good.
said by patcat88 See Profile :

Comcast won't deploy DOCSIS 3 unless there is Uverse/FiOS competition in the market.
What? What about the St Paul/Minneapolis deployment? What competition is there? Also, what about Comcast's announcement to deploy DOCSIS 3 to 100% of their footprint by mid-2010?

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Robb
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said by TK Junk Mail See Profile :

If you look at their qtrly and annual reports you would see they invest on average $1 billion a year in infrastructure. So all these claims that Comcast never invests are pure nonsense.
I think Comcast invested $6 Bn but that's not quite the $10 Bn Verizon put into theirs nor the $17 Bn borne by AT&T.

Still, I want to know the configuration of a "Burst" node. What are the sizes of the bandwidth pools being divided by how many homes? This will tell me whether they're doing meaningful upgrades or just pushing out modem configs at a whim.
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patcat88

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Re: Legal P2P will be fostered; illegal P2P will be punished

Speaking of node architecture. Its interesting most CMTSes are built around a shared design of the downstream link, 4 nodes use an identical downstream channel, but each node has a different upstream. The CMTS has 4 upstream ports, and 1 downstream. So the upload may pass 100 houses, while the downstream passes 400. I'm not sure if this is just 1990s thinking or downstreams are really never used and its always upload that is maxed out.

en102
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Nobody invests in capacity, unless they can make a profit on that investment.
Its more likely that you'll find the investment to be in managing the efficiency of the existing capacity.

This would almost go back to the days of having ISP run cached proxy servers.

I almost wonder if this p4p is an attempt at creating ISP based seed proxy servers for customers. It would cut down on bandwidth consumption, and sold p2p issues.
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swhx7
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Re: Legal P2P will be fostered; illegal P2P will be punished

said by en102 See Profile :

Nobody invests in capacity, unless they can make a profit on that investment.
Its more likely that you'll find the investment to be in managing the efficiency of the existing capacity.

That's just putting a nicer spin on "it will be more profitable for the ISP to charge more and more, make more restrictive policies, and never improve anything for the customers".

said by en102 See Profile :

I almost wonder if this p4p is an attempt at creating ISP based seed proxy servers for customers. It would cut down on bandwidth consumption, and sold p2p issues.

They can't seed or cache anything from p2p without getting in legal trouble, because a lot of what's out there (and a lot of what's popular and would benefit from caching) is copyright-infringing. Even indiscriminate caching would get them sued, and if they did it selectively it wouldn't help much with the traffic problem.

Besides, it would amount to the same thing as collaborating with Pando/p4p companies. But that doesn't reduce their peering costs unless they discourage p2p (see my "it's a scam" post).

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Robb
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Re: Legal P2P will be fostered; illegal P2P will be punished

said by swhx7 See Profile :

They can't seed or cache anything from p2p without getting in legal trouble, because a lot of what's out there (and a lot of what's popular and would benefit from caching) is copyright-infringing.
Sure they can ... Via DMCA notices ... just like YouTube.

Comcast already handles DMCA notices, so allowing a PeerCache and applying notice handling to that would be no big whoop (hell, it might end up saving time!).

Now DMCA is broken itself, but that's a different story.
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HTTP is the new Bandwidth Hog...
patcat88

join:2002-04-05
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Re: Legal P2P will be fostered; illegal P2P will be punished

Yep. American laws gives protection to automated non-human intervention systems. Aslong as the humans responsible for the automated non-human system responds to DCMA takedowns/supeonas/orders, everything is perfectly legal. Otherwise your ISP would be held as liable as you for any p2p you do, and the Tier 1 too, and the leasers of the fiber optic lines, and the city too (for aiding copyright infrindgment).

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Robb
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said by en102 See Profile :

I almost wonder if this p4p is an attempt at creating ISP based seed proxy servers for customers. It would cut down on bandwidth consumption, and sold p2p issues.
They could do that right now.

Every ISP could just put out a machine named tracker that falls in their DNS resolve space -- for example:

tracker on comcast would be tracker.comcast.net
tracker on verizon would be tracker.verizon.net
tracker on rr would be tracker.rr.com
...and etc...

It could even be regionalized if the RDNS is set up that way

tracker for my IP would be tracker.or.comcast.net

And BitTorrent downloaders simply need to add the one word "tracker" to the list of trackers on any torrent, private or public. The only IPs on that tracker would be from that same ISP (because "tracker" wouldn't resolve elsewhere). It wouldn't violate copyright since trackers only carry a hash (no file or archive names) and IP addresses.

WALLAH! Done. No need for P4P. No closed-source apps required. No strange algorithms or AS lookups. No gatekeepers. Just one machine and one DNS entry can bias BitTorrent to keep a lot of its activity on-net.

Very simple. Try it -- you'll see that I'm right about that.
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swhx7
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Re: Legal P2P will be fostered; illegal P2P will be punished

Trackers only connect the peers with one another. This could help to keep connections within the ISP's network if (a) there were seeders within the ISP's network (b) the ISP kept enough torrent files on the tracker to answer a lot of the demand (c) subscribers were willing to use the ISP's tracker instead of a remote one.

But the gain would be only small, For more reduction of peering costs, the ISP would have to cache content, or in Bittorrent terms, provide seeds. This would make ISPs the infringers, not merely conduits, in the case of infringing files. It would still leave customers going off the network whenever they want something that's not on the ISP's tracker, or when they don't trust the ISP.

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Robb
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edit:
May 22nd, @07:39PM

Re: Legal P2P will be fostered; illegal P2P will be punished

I think you misunderstand what a tracker is. A tracker isn't a website that hosts .torrent files or that has information about the contents a download.

A tracker is simply an HTTP machine that accepts queries containing an infohash and outputs IP addresses and port numbers related to it.

When your client contacts a tracker, that tracker doesn't know whether you're downloading a song or a picture, an album or a movie.

Many trackers are attached to web sites, those web sites do contain .torrent files and information about the download -- and they even exchange data with the tracker function.

So when I was talking about a tracker, I'm simply talking about the machine that identifies who is in the swarm.

said by swhx7 See Profile :

Trackers only connect the peers with one another. This could help to keep connections within the ISP's network if (a) there were seeders within the ISP's network
Everyone who is downloading has data available to upload. There doesn't have to be a single on-net seeder in order to relieve stress at the network boundaries.

Note, the proposal is to add "tracker" to the list of trackers, not replacing the existing trackers on the list.

(b) the ISP kept enough torrent files on the tracker to answer a lot of the demand
(See above -- trackers don't store .torrent files, they only accept the infohash calculated from the contents of a .torrent file.)

(c) subscribers were willing to use the ISP's tracker instead of a remote one.
(see above -- we're talking about adding to the list of trackers, not replacing it.)

I completely agree that the subscriber should have the free choice of using such a tracker. If a greater proportion of more local peers generally improves download speed -- which it should -- then I suspect downloaders will choose to do so unless ISPs also start to mess with the privacy of their users.

But the gain would be only small,
This is essentially what Pando is doing to get 250% to 800% improvement. This is also what the Azureus plugin Ono strives to do and they claim huge speed improvements, too.

But you've already misunderstood the proposal, and your theory was based on that misunderstanding. Perhaps you'll see more clearly now.

For more reduction of peering costs, the ISP would have to cache content, or in Bittorrent terms, provide seeds.
How much reduction is needed before it is enough? Answer: we don't know. The ISPs are all complaining that P2P makers must reduce the impact but they've never said by how much, or when, or even where in the network (the last mile, the boundary gateway, upload, download). They've given absolutely no data. Oh, but they do call us Bandwidth Hogs -- so do they want to make piglets or do they really want to make bacon?

Yeah and no. Once a file is unpopular, the once-in-a-while normal download of that file isn't all that impactful. But when something is newly released, and several hundreds of ACTIVE connections are crossing the network boundary to get it, then having a cached copy and internal peers as data sources really can cut the demand on the boundary gateways.

Caching may be of concern to those who are using private systems, because caching would reduce the demand for their upload bytes and their ratio will suffer. That said, if this model becomes widespread, then administrators should reset their expectations about ratios anyway.

This would make ISPs the infringers, not merely conduits, in the case of infringing files.
No more than YouTube is an infringer. DMCA take-down notice. Done, it's off the local cache. If my downloading of the content is within my rights, I can contest the DMCA notice (probably a waste of time because most uses are not fair use) or get the file without the benefit of the cache.

This does not add to or take away from a downloader's rights or a copyrightholder's rights in any way, nor does it help nor hinder a copyrightholder in protecting his rights.

It would still leave customers going off the network whenever they want something that's not on the ISP's tracker, or when they don't trust the ISP.
You're right! You can't make P2P a zero-impact technology, but that isn't the goal. The goal is to reduce its impact in a meaningful way -- and my proposal would do that.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
HTTP is the new Bandwidth Hog...
patcat88

join:2002-04-05
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Re: Legal P2P will be fostered; illegal P2P will be punished

Exactly. Trackers eat up less bandwidth than a teenager's IM conversation. 10 KB every 20 minutes. Its would be retarded for an ISP to run their own tracker.
moonpuppy

join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL

said by TK Junk Mail See Profile :

Copyright infringement should be booted from the network. And while many say ISPs should stay out of being copyright cops, it is the best place to put an end to that practice.
So should infected systems the spew SPAM and DNS attacks.
deadzoned
Premium
join:2005-04-13
Baton Rouge, LA
·Cox HSI

But I thought all P2P was illegal traffic simply by being P2P?! Guess I have to change my way of thinking again because big corporate deems it necessary.

ISP's are making deals with the devil left and right these days. It's gonna bite them in the ass down the road and it's certainly not going to be friendly to the hated consumer like you and me.

funchords
Robb
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Hillsboro, OR
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype
·Comcast


edit:
May 22nd, @06:08PM

said by TK Junk Mail See Profile :

In short, Comcast customers who want to use P2P to trade copyrighted files are about to either become second class citizens, or find themselves booted from the Comcast network entirely.
Copyright infringement should be booted from the network. And while many say ISPs should stay out of being copyright cops, it is the best place to put an end to that practice.
There is no way to systematically prevent copyright infringement on the Internet because the question of infringement is decided on HOW the content is used. The courts have already ruled that making it available is not infringement. Using it for educational, non-profit, news, review, or commentary purposes is not infringement. The 17 USC 107 "Fair Use" test is a great text as to why no electronic system can say that copyright has been violated.

A copyright enforcement system has to be compatible with copyright law -- otherwise it's broken.

Technology that distinguishes between copyrighted works and non-copyrighted works is dangerous, as it is inconsistent with the copyright laws around the world, including those here in North America.

In the US, everything written or drawn is protected by copyright laws, without any requirement for upfront registration.

To design a copyright filter to act correctly according to US law, it would have to block all transfers unless some bitprint was registered somewhere as allowable to be transferred:

1. Because its copyright has expired (currently 70 to 90 years from the date of the works creation or the death of the creator).

2. Because the content was explicitly placed into the public domain by the owner, a recognized authority, or a treaty provision.

3. Because the content's owner explicitly allows such distribution while retaining other rights.

AND THIS IS A REALLY INTERESTING ONE -- this is the issue that makes filtering impossible:

4. Because the downloader claims the right under Fair Use. (The owner does not get to decide "fair use." If the owner consents, that's called a license and it would be handled by #3 above.

So, unless the filter works in the way that I've described above (it's impossible), it's broken by design. It is incompatible with the Copyright laws of the United States -- and our laws have aligned with the various treaties and laws of other major world powers.

And there is still much case law to consider, some of it still controversial, and it would have to be incorporated into that system:

a. Does the protectee (author, owner) place any limit on the duration or places of distribution? (Some say that such limits exceed the exclusive rights granted under copyright.)

b. Does the protectee place a limit on the number of transfers? (ditto)

It's madness.

To fix this system, we have to fix the part that's broken -- and the Internet is not broken. We need to fix the laws.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
HTTP is the new Bandwidth Hog...
patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY

Re: A copyright filter has to comply with the copyright law

Dont worry, a federal judge or SCOTUS can easily rewrite the law by writing some carefully crafted case law. Remember, your rights only exist in a court room. A judge is not required to follow the law. You can't appeal a judge's personal opinion, since its the law now.

Judges INTERPRET the law, which gives lots and lots of leeway for modification.
dcurrey

join:2004-06-29
·ViaTalk


edit:
May 22nd, @02:15PM

Why wouldn't they want heavy downloaders

If the put the 250g cap in place and people pay extra for the bandwidth why wouldn't they like p2p. Not like they are responsible for what people downloads so it would be more money for them.

It would actually be against there interest to try and limit p2p to legal downloads only. They are just doing this to look good.

swhx7
Premium
join:2006-07-23
Elbonia
·RoadRunner Cable

It's a scam, not a solution

This would reduce traffic across the border routers only if all the p2p people switched to the p4p.

Here are some good reasons that won't happen:

1. The person on the other end of the connection, on some other ISP, has the file you want and is distributing it on something other than p4p.

2. Only files the p4p vendor approves of will be distributable on p4p; anything that doesn't meet their standards will be excluded, but may be available on p2p.

3. Are they going to charge for use of p4p? P2p is free.

4. For me to trust their client, they'll have to publish the source code on a licence that lets me change it and recompile if it doesn't conform to my security policy. But this won't happen - see #2 and #3.

5. Monitoring (spyware), advertising, DRM, other hassles or hazards?

If Comcast tries to pressure subscribers to use only p4p and abandon p2p, whether by rules or by technical interference, they'll be right back to traffic discrimination (violation of network neutrality). The claim that all p2p use is copyright infringement is demonstrably false and cannot provide any excuse for discrimination or for trying to change the applications customers use.

MattE
Obama '08
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
·North State Commun..
·Corporate Colocation


edit:
May 22nd, @02:17PM

Good questions

It's not hard to detect illegal traffic, even encrypted. The weakness is in the initial HTTP request for the torrent file ... and the fact that the provider can see WHAT SITE you requested the torrent from.

Downloading »www.leettorrentsite.com/air-supp···.torrent is pretty damn obvious.

This becomes even easier if they "whitelist" certain bittorrent providers ... I think this asks the bigger question, what will the tax to be whitelisted be?

I think the best way to do this is to not degrade any traffic, but start an independent coalition who tracks central illegal file sharing that all providers subscribe to. If they can do it now with web content filters, they can do it with bittorrent sites. Hell, the system can even feed the list of torrent sites to a human to analyse easily. If the site is password protected and refuses to provide the organization with a login to view the content, you automatically make the blacklist.

I find it interesting that Comcast has all but admitted they are not concerned with limiting traffic at the node, but instead are basically admitting they are trying to decrease their peering costs.

See 23 replies to this post

i5050MbSoon
Formerly TwoKDialup
Premium
join:2002-06-07
Coloma, MI


edit:
May 22nd, @02:21PM

No worries...

...thieves will still have choices. If they don't want to pay for an albumn/movie/software, they can go down to their local ChinaMart and rip it off.

Make no mistake, I'm not an advocate of shoplifting but at least the artist/author will still get paid for their hard work.
--
Comcast has spoiled me rotten!

swhx7
Premium
join:2006-07-23
Elbonia
·RoadRunner Cable

Re: No worries...

It would be nice if music lovers could support their favorite artists. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way.

said by i5050MbSoon See Profile :

I'm not an advocate of shoplifting but at least the artist/author will still get paid for their hard work.

In most cases that's not true. Musicians on major labels, with a few rare exceptions, get a small royalty only after they're reimbursed the record company for all the costs of recording, promotion, and anything else the company has paid for or claims to have paid. If the artists are lucky enough to sell enough discs to pay off all of that, they start getting something like 15 cents out of a $15 CD sale (after offsets for promotional copies, etc.).

And if the artist wants an accounting he must pay for an accountant approved by the record company to do it.

The record companies never create any music or other art or culture. Their distribution and promotion services used to be valuable, but now can be handled better online. The role of the record companies now is only to suck all the value out of the music business, from customers on one side and artists on the other. They sooner they die off the better. And the collapse of CD sales is making it happen.

Music will go on without the Hollywood companies as soon as artists realize they can do better than selling out.

IT Guy
Your God Smells Funny

join:2004-07-29
Las Cruces, NM
·Comcast

Re: No worries...

Makes you wonder what is taking them so long to realize that going independent is better, especially for well established artists. If the lesser-known artists are able to do so and still make a profit without the middle man(and for some, I'm sure it's a good profit) , why haven't the well-known artists following suit?
--
My time is a piece of wax, falling on a termite, that's choking on a splinter. --Beck
patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY

Re: No worries...

said by IT Guy See Profile :

Makes you wonder what is taking them so long to realize that going independent is better, especially for well established artists. If the lesser-known artists are able to do so and still make a profit without the middle man(and for some, I'm sure it's a good profit) , why haven't the well-known artists following suit?
BTW, independents can't get any ASCAP/RIAA royalties. Since labels get royalties based on charts and selling volumes. Indie artists can never get any royalities that were paid for radio broadcast or record store selling since they don't have enough volume to qualify to get money from the "clearing houses". Also the clearing houses are mandated by the US Govt. So basically, most artists will never see 1 penny from royalties.

ztmike
1kwikgt
Premium
join:2001-08-02
·Comcast
·AT&T Midwest

Hm

Last I heard there was a study..and out of that people who download music and ect. usually end up BUYING the product in stores.

BUT with the crap economy and high gas prices and food prices, peoples wallets are seriously running thin, and torrents is really the only way they can still get what they want.

I'm in this boat, and I can't go out and spend $20 at the movies, the money just ain't there for me.

Times are hard, maybe not for everyone, but the majority.

Call me a thief or whatever, but I'm afraid bills/food/gas/my home comes 1st and foremost.
--
www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdYueIC1pjM
Mike_343
I Need Speed.

join:2001-07-05
Dyer, IN

Re: Hm

then don't watch mov