Don't Fear The Bandwidth ApocalypseCable industry lobbies the FCC with some epic distortions... 12:31PM Tuesday Jul 15 2008 by Karl Bodetags: legal · fcc · business · bandwidth · cable · networkingA good rule of thumb: when someone claims the Internet is facing bandwidth armageddon, it's usually because they're in the business of designing and selling traffic shaping hardware, trying to justify new and frequently unjustifiable broadband pricing models, or trying to scare politicians into doing what they want. The guys actually working in the network operation centers will generally tell you that congestion can almost always be handled with smart design and capacity upgrades. Last week the National Cable and Telecom Association (NCTA) was busy trying to lobby the FCC, which has been investigating exactly what sort of network management should be allowed, and how it should be disclosed to consumers. The NCTA argued that the use of deep packet inspection hardware was absolutely necessary on cable networks. Without such technology (the likes of which is being used to throttle Comcast P2P users), the NCTA claims that the Internet would all but collapse. From a series of letters sent to the FCC last Friday: In particular, (Insight CEO Mike) Willner described how, in the absence of network management, the usage of P2P services by a very small number of a cable system's high-speed Internet customers can cause substantial (and sometimes complete) congestion of the system's upload capacity. As a result, service for the system's high-speed Internet customers using the Internet for other purposes (such as e-mail, web browsing, e-shopping, streaming music and video, etc.) would be degraded. network upgrades that are intended to enhance the speed and quality of Internet access would, in the absence of network management, only exacerbate this problem. -NCTA |
The problem is, any claim of "complete congestion" is lobbyist hyperbole, again highlighting the chasm between lobbyists and real technicians. Networking and protocol specialist Robb Topolski should know -- he first discovered Comcast's use of Sandvine to throttle upstream capacity in May of 2007. It was his findings in our forums that led to the FCC's investigation of the cable company. "Complete congestion is a technical fantasy which only exists in the minds of people who do not understand TCP congestion control and how Additive Increase/Multiplicative Decrease (AIMD) works in TCP Congestion avoidance works, he says. "AIMD allows a linear growth of bandwidth utilization until loss occurs, at which time an exponential reduction takes place. This slow-start, fast-fallback ensures congestion cannot cause gridlock." In other words, total gridlock does not happen because it cannot happen, yet there's no shortage of people suggesting it's inevitable unless party X (ISPs, lobbyists, hardware salesmen) get what they want (less regulation, per-byte billing, a new Audi). In the letter to the FCC, the NCTA goes on to suggest that capacity upgrades wouldn't help -- and in fact would hurt: As Mr. Willner pointed out, network upgrades that are intended to enhance the speed and quality of Internet access would, in the absence of network management, only exacerbate this problem because P2P users around the world seek to retrieve files from computers on systems with the fastest upload speeds. Topolski says the NCTA lobbyists are intentionally confusing providing network upgrades with providing faster upload speeds. "In an ISP, such as Insight's network, a network upgrade ought to be performed if the network is routinely experiencing congestion," he notes. "This does not mean that individual cable modems ought to be provisioned with higher speeds, but that the shared pool of uplink bandwidth that they share ought to be increased to reduce the occurrence of congestion." So the NCTA is both falsely inflating the threat of "complete" congestion, while lying about whether increasing capacity would actually help. Why? The group is protecting the cable industry's right to provide less product for more money using dubious practices (Comcast and Cox's throttling of upstream bandwidth using forged TCP packets), while protecting possible DPI revenue streams like behavioral advertising. Topolski tells me it's also important to understand that the NCTA is intentionally conflating network management with deep packet inspection. The two are not synonymous. Topolski recently authored an interesting report on how behavioral advertising and deep packet inspection technology from NebuAD has a number of nasty habits. "Deep Packet Inspection devices capable of detecting what applications end points are using are both new and intrusive. They do not perform a task of Network management, they are performing tasks of Session and Application management. These are both new and inappropriate roles for Internet Service Providers." Most techs don't oppose reasonable network management (booting extreme gluttons, some QOS and prioritization) -- but so far ISPs have shown their use of DPI gear to be anything but reasonable, much like their defense of packet forgery and behavioral advertising. "The Internet did not grow to become a raging success without management, and it borders on ridiculous for the industry to claim that the invention of full-scale wire-speed DPI is the Saviour of the Internet," says Topolski. Related:- Comcast Sued For Traffic Shaping
- Don't Get Too Excited About The FCC's Comcast 'Investigation'
- NY Attorney General Investigating Comcast
- Comcast Tells FCC To Butt Out
- Comcast Pays Florida $150K For Misleading Consumers
- Monday Morning Links
- Tuesday Evening Links
- Monday Evening Links
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  dadkins Land of Confusion Premium,MVM join:2003-09-26 Hercules, CA
·Comcast
edit: July 15th, @12:22PM
| Upload congestion? Hmmm... Comcast CRAN - redundant 10G to the headend. Pretty sure that is a symmetrical 10G... both of them. So, I can have 16+mbps down and 2mbps up - where is the rest of all the upload getting chewed up at?
The problem lies with the technology(so I'm told) - not the capacity. So stop with the horseshit, Quitcha Bitchin! Simple math indicates that I should be able to light up my upstream with TONS of headend room to spare.
NOTE: Currently, I can, and do, get all of my connections provisioned speeds - all times of the day. If that offends anyone - sorry!  -- Think outside the Fox... Opera | |
|  |  espaeth Misanthrope Premium join:2001-04-21 Minneapolis, MN
·Callcentric
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·Comcast
·Embarq
| Re: Upload congestion? said by dadkins :Hmmm... Comcast CRAN - redundant 10G to the headend. Pretty sure that is a symmetrical 10G... both of them. So, I can have 16+mbps down and 2mbps up - where is the rest of all the upload getting chewed up at? It's getting chewed up by RF interference and the need to control upstream broadcast transmit intervals.
On the downstream it's one transmitter, multi-receiver. The CMTS transmits downstream constantly with no need to pause, the cable modems grab whatever frames are theirs off the wire and life is happy. The CMTS can only listen to one modem at a time, however, so that's where mechanisms like TDMA divide out bandwidth timeslots that each modem can request to transmit up. Multi-speaker / single-listener is a more complicated problem to solve, and one of the principle reasons that upstream capacity is limited. | |
|  |  |  |  20217732
join:2008-07-16 | Hi everyone,
Bandwidth is infinite so is natural resource | |
|  |  |  RogerADSL
join:2004-12-10 Lawrenceville, GA
·Comcast
·AT&T Southeast
| Re: Upload congestion? said by 20217732 :Hi everyone, Bandwidth is infinite so is natural resource Step away from the bong please....you have had enough! | |
|   Jerm
join:2000-04-10 Richland, WA | OMG... Bandwidth is scarce... quick someone reboot the huge master Linksys like I saw on TV! | |
|  |   dadkins Land of Confusion Premium,MVM join:2003-09-26 Hercules, CA
·Comcast
| Re: OMG... said by Jerm :Bandwidth is scarce... quick someone reboot the huge master Linksys like I saw on TV! LMAO!  -- Think outside the Fox... Opera | |
|  |  |   RobP
join:2008-03-30 | Re: OMG... Awesome! | |
|  |  |   punker deleted by moderator Premium join:2004-06-21 Palmdale, CA clubs: | :P | |
|  |   dadkins Land of Confusion Premium,MVM join:2003-09-26 Hercules, CA edit: July 15th, @12:25PM
| Dupe | |
|  |   antdude A Ninja Ant Premium,VIP join:2001-03-25
| said by Jerm :Bandwidth is scarce... quick someone reboot the huge master Linksys like I saw on TV! Full episode (legal and if you are in the country): »www.southparkstudios.com/guide/1206/ ... -- Ant @ »antfarm.ma.cx and »aqfl.net. Please do not IM/e-mail me for technical support. Use the forum! Disclaimer: The views expressed in this posting are mine, and do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer | |
|   Gts Hi
join:2000-10-27 Astoria, NY
·RoadRunner Cable
·AT&T CallVantage
| Is it that hard To boot the 'heavy' users, who some how cause mass congestion on various cable networks? Why do they keep these type of users, if they're causing all these problems.
I've said it in many other posts, the cable co's had ample time to prepare/install/configure a network, that would handle all the loads/users. But for some reason, they just kept on taking in all those profits, while technology was passing them by.
it's all just a sham. | |
|  |   S_engineer
join:2007-05-16 Chicago, IL
| Re: Is it that hard said by Gts :I've said it in many other posts, the cable co's had ample time to prepare/install/configure a network, that would handle all the loads/users. But for some reason, they just kept on taking in all those profits, while technology was passing them by. it's all just a sham. Well in Comcraps case, you're partially right; they've had ample time to build their networks. But unfortunately, they're at the mercy of their shareholders. Since they're at $18.50 now, I can't see a big infusion of cash for their infrastucture any time soon!
How Comcraptic | |
|  |  |   Gts Hi
join:2000-10-27 Astoria, NY
·RoadRunner Cable
·AT&T CallVantage
| Re: Is it that hard said by S_engineer :said by Gts :I've said it in many other posts, the cable co's had ample time to prepare/install/configure a network, that would handle all the loads/users. But for some reason, they just kept on taking in all those profits, while technology was passing them by. it's all just a sham. Well in Comcraps case, you're partially right; they've had ample time to build their networks. But unfortunately, they're at the mercy of their shareholders. Since they're at $18.50 now, I can't see a big infusion of cash for their infrastucture any time soon! How Comcraptic Yes they're always at the fate of their shareholders! But they also could fix this underlying issue very easily, the problem is. Do they want to spend the type of money Verizon has with its FIOS product. | |
|  |  |  EPS
join:2008-02-13 Hingham, MA | The Roberts family controls the voting stock of Comcast, doesn't it? Or was that arrangement changed? | |
|  |   insomniac84
join:2002-01-03 Schererville, IN
| Well if you are a cable monopoly it wouldn't be smart to boot someone for not breaking any advertised or pre-defined rule. Banning someone from the only source of broadband in their town for breaking a rule such as "Using enough bandwidth to adversely effect the network is prohibited", is just asking to be sued and to lose. If they quietly throttle the speeds they still get the customer's money and the odds of him suing are much lower since he still can do all the legal things he enjoys and knows you are the only ISP he has. And if he did sue, it is very hard for him to prove you are throttling. | |
|  |  |   i5050MbSoon Formerly TwoKDialup Premium join:2002-06-07 Coloma, MI | Re: Is it that hard P2P software effectively turns your pc into a public server.
Like it or not, Comcast's TOS explicitly prohibits public servers.
Is that so hard to understand? -- Comcast has spoiled me rotten! | |
|  |  |  |   en102 Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26 Valencia, CA | Re: Is it that hard That's sad.. DSL-Extreme specifically allows public servers, with the exception of an open mail relay. -- Canada = Hollywood North | |
|  |  |  |  zipjay
join:2003-03-11 Louisville, KY | until you turn off sharing, then its not | |
|  |  |  |   insomniac84
join:2002-01-03 Schererville, IN
| p2p isn't really a public server. Otherwise uploading anything to someone else is the same as a public server. And most services you run have some kind of registration, making them not public, but private. Even if the registration is simply providing a username when you login, the service is now privatized. Would a webserver with a password be a public server? If so that TOS is basically hogwash. | |
|  |  lvlorpheus
join:2008-02-17 Eureka Springs, AR
edit: July 15th, @08:23PM
| said by Gts :To boot the 'heavy' users, who some how cause mass congestion on various cable networks? Why do they keep these type of users, if they're causing all these problems. Come on people have got to be able to see the answer to this question. 1.) Boot the (small number) of heavy users (that can cripple a network ) and the problem is solved. No reason for anything to change. 2.) Complain about the (small number) of heavy user (that can cripple a network ) and cap everyone coupled with a price increase. BIG MONEY FOR DOING LESS. Which path do you think they will try to sell to end users. All the while using one of the oldest tactics to get what they want no mater how evil or wrong it is. Convince the majority of the people to hate and despise a minority of the people all the while pumping up the majority as being better than the minority (who is labeled as taking or harming the majority in some way.)
The big ISP's are banking on this tactic working so they can charge each and everyone of us more for less. If they get this to work they will leave it in place as long as they can charging as many generations more for less until people are willing to see "a house divided is doomed to fail." If any of you can not see it, we the end users are the house. Is it to much to hope we will not be manipulated into things like this? Remember if we let AT&T buy Bellsouth it will be better for the customer. AT&T is now talking about caps. Could someone explain to me how these customers getting less than they get now is going to be better for them?
Does that answer your question as to why they keep those users? They can charge more for less if they divide the people. | |
|   en102 Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26 Valencia, CA | Don't Fear The Bandwidth Apocalypse But ... fear is such a good selling tool. Its been used to sell just about anything you can think of (Insurance comes to mind... as does war). -- Canada = Hollywood North | |
|  viperlmw Premium join:2005-01-25
·Qwest.net
| A word on QOS and prioritization From the article: "Like most techs, Topolski doesn't oppose reasonable network management (booting high consumption users, some QOS and prioritization)"
I got lambasted here by an ex-mod for suggesting that QOS has the potential to be useful (mostly centering around VOIP/ip video), and was basically told I didn't know what I was talking about even when I showed documentation. So if QOS/prioritization are going to be discussed, I'll go get my waders out again, 'cause it's gonna get deep. | |
|  |  lordofwhee
join:2007-10-21 Everett, WA
| Re: A word on QOS and prioritization I've taken to running my bit torrent at night when I'm sleeping so I can stand to use my connection, but I'd be totally OK with Comcast throttling (not RESETTING) my uploads during peak hours (or even non-peak hours, if to a lesser extent).
However, forging RST packets I am NOT OK with, as it undermines the basis of TCP/IP.
Slow down my bit torrent packets, I don't care, just don't sever the connection completely (especially not with forged replies). | |
|  |  |   Jason Levine Premium join:2001-07-13 Albany, NY
| Re: A word on QOS and prioritization I could see that type of prioritization of resources being ok. If the network is being heavily used and large groups of people are going to be affected, then get the top 5-10% of users and slow down their speeds until the congestion is over. Better that 5-10% of customers get slowed down than 100% of customers get slowed down. Of course, improving their network capacity is the better, long term solution. -- -Jason Levine Support a children's charity. Buy a calendar. Shooting For A Cause Jason's Toolbox | PCQandA.com | |
|  |   TK Junk Mail Go ahead, make my day Premium join:2002-03-03 Margate City, NJ clubs:
·Comcast
| said by viperlmw :From the article: "Like most techs, Topolski doesn't oppose reasonable network management (booting high consumption users, some QOS and prioritization)" I got lambasted here by an ex-mod for suggesting that QOS has the potential to be useful (mostly centering around VOIP/ip video), and was basically told I didn't know what I was talking about even when I showed documentation. So if QOS/prioritization are going to be discussed, I'll go get my waders out again, 'cause it's gonna get deep. You know you are not allowed to speak out against the bandwidth hogs or you will be attacked. It is against populist mob rule to demand people not get unlimited everything for free. -- My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page Ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk? | |
|  |  |   digitalfreak Frodo failed. Bush has the ring
join:2005-12-09 49533
| Re: A word on QOS and prioritization said by TK Junk Mail :said by viperlmw :From the article: "Like most techs, Topolski doesn't oppose reasonable network management (booting high consumption users, some QOS and prioritization)" I got lambasted here by an ex-mod for suggesting that QOS has the potential to be useful (mostly centering around VOIP/ip video), and was basically told I didn't know what I was talking about even when I showed documentation. So if QOS/prioritization are going to be discussed, I'll go get my waders out again, 'cause it's gonna get deep. You know you are not allowed to speak out against the bandwidth hogs or you will be attacked. It is against populist mob rule to demand people not get unlimited everything for free. Here's a virtual quarter. Call someone who cares. | |
|  |  |  nasadude
join:2001-10-05 Rockville, MD
·Comcast
| said by TK Junk Mail :You know you are not allowed to speak out against the bandwidth hogs or you will be attacked. It is against populist mob rule to demand people not get unlimited everything for free. the bandwidth isn't free, it's paid for. and what was that word those big ISPs use in their advertisements... oh yeah, unlimited! | |
|  |  |   packetscan Premium join:2004-10-19 Bridgeport, CT clubs:
·Optimum Online
| said by TK Junk Mail :said by viperlmw :From the article: "Like most techs, Topolski doesn't oppose reasonable network management (booting high consumption users, some QOS and prioritization)" I got lambasted here by an ex-mod for suggesting that QOS has the potential to be useful (mostly centering around VOIP/ip video), and was basically told I didn't know what I was talking about even when I showed documentation. So if QOS/prioritization are going to be discussed, I'll go get my waders out again, 'cause it's gonna get deep. You know you are not allowed to speak out against the bandwidth hogs or you will be attacked. It is against populist mob rule to demand people not get unlimited everything for free. I'm sorry that i expect to get what i am being sold. Other wise it's false advertising or a bait and switch. -- Reach out and Tap someone! | |
|  |  |   NetAdmin
join:2008-05-22
| said by TK Junk Mail :You know you are not allowed to speak out against the bandwidth hogs or you will be attacked. It is against populist mob rule to demand people not get unlimited everything for free. I went and searched for the discussion in question. The poster didn't get "lambasted" for speaking "out against bandwidth hogs" or against "populist mob rule"... The discussion in question was about the technical nitty gritty of QoS and its effects on traffic and the poster didn't understand QoS enough to debate the person he/she was talking to in the thread. -- --- Over ten plus years of carrying The Clue Bat... | |
|  |  |  filizaragoza
join:2006-01-11 San Diego, CA
| IF they Advertise 10MB/2MB Connection for $$.$$ of money a month, and you pay the such amount,
I have the right or use such connection at full speed for 1 a month or period the payment covers.....
The problem is they oversubscribe a NODE, what that means is a node has like 300/50 MB ;
They sell 100 People the 10/2, They are required to have 1000/100 Bandwidth provision, yet they don,t, they just provide 300/50.
IT's like a plane that has 87 Seats, and the airline sells 95 arguing that some people have a tendency to miss planes,
So as long as these people miss the plane the airlines double sells 8 seats, but what happens when every body arrives in time to board the plane? do you split you're sell in 3? so at least part of you gets on the plane!
That's Whats happening here, The Cable is Charging for a Service that is not fulfilling 100%, as it lacks capacity, SOLUTION Sell only what you have. Want to sell more, Upgrade,
COMCAST Solution: Reset Connections, Lobby, And not give people gat they pay for. and the people that use the connection at over 50% Call them Bandwidth hogs.,
If you pay for Cellular, and your plan has 1000 Minutes any time... YOU HAVE THE RIGHT To use 1000 MINUTES, if you use over 800 the Cell Company says you're a HOG... will you like that?
IF anything it's at least deceptive marketing, or fraud.. by Cable. | |
|  |  |  |   TK Junk Mail Go ahead, make my day Premium join:2002-03-03 Margate City, NJ clubs:
·Comcast
| Re: A word on QOS and prioritization said by filizaragoza :That's Whats happening here, The Cable is Charging for a Service that is not fulfilling 100%, as it lacks capacity, SOLUTION Sell only what you have. Want to sell more, Upgrade, If you get what you are demanding, then instead of $43/mo or $53/mo, expect to pay $150/mo. Overbooking, as you call it, is why the costs are what they are. Change that method and you will need to pay much more. There is no free lunch. -- My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page Ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk? | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   Filiberto
@telnor.net | Yet when you use the services as it's advertice you ar call a bandwidth HOG | |
|  |   NetAdmin
join:2008-05-22
| said by viperlmw :I got lambasted here by an ex-mod for suggesting that QOS has the potential to be useful The "potential" of QoS/prioritization to "useful" is limited. -- --- Over ten plus years of carrying The Clue Bat... | |
|  |  |  See 12 replies to this post | |
 |  |   Rick Premium,MVM join:2001-02-06 Waterbury, CT clubs: 
| lol... Topolski has a problem with the bandwidth hogs having their p2p interfered with...
but doesn't have a problem with them being kicked off their isp instead as his suggested "alternative" ?
"Like most techs, Topolski doesn't oppose reasonable network management (booting high consumption users, some QOS and prioritization)"
Perhaps his next expose should be lets see how many customers Comcast can drop this month for network abuse.
Isn't a far better solution what sandvine did which let them at least remain customers..albeit reigning in their outrageous behavior somewhat?
The problem sometimes found with critics is that their "solutions" are sometimes worse.
And this is one of those times IMHO. -- The Coyote captured the RR! Roadrunner Rick is now Comcastic! | |
|  |   funchords Robb Premium,MVM join:2001-03-11 Hillsboro, OR
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype
·Comcast
| Re: lol... said by Rick :Topolski has a problem with the bandwidth hogs having their p2p interfered with... but doesn't have a problem with them being kicked off their isp instead as his suggested "alternative" ? If they're interfering with others or violating the terms of their contracts, of course! Why should anyone put up with such Net.Idiots? That's the traditional way to handle the abuse desk.
Some time back (a few years, it seems) big ISPs seem to have tried to automate the abuse desk. They avoid kicking people off outright but instead create automation to look for problems. I think this effort has largely backfired.
I do not advocate cutting off service for hitting an invisible cap or for using P2P or any other legal mode. -- Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon HTTP is the new Bandwidth Hog...
| |
|  |  |   Rick Premium,MVM join:2001-02-06 Waterbury, CT clubs: 
| Re: lol... said by funchords :If they're interfering with others or violating the terms of their contracts, of course! Why should anyone put up with such Net.Idiots? That's the traditional way to handle the abuse desk. I'm having a very hard time understanding your logic and applying it to your sometimes frantic efforts to see Comcast punished and chastised for their sandvine efforts.
On one hand, here you are saying that if people are interfering with others..throw the bastards off the network.
On the other hand, for MONTHS now, we've read of your opposition to Comcast trying to do what they can to insure that all we users have a positive experience with our connections and to insure that this vast minority of people aren't taking down the network.
Robb..let's face it. All the bandwidth hogs were the ones maxing out their p2p. That's who was doing it and who was causing the problems. And so, Comcasts efforts went towards regulating that..and only that by implementing sandvine.
Was it a perfect solution? No. Because it could have some carry over impact on some who weren't abusing it and who were using p2p for legal means. But that isn't what the vast majority were and are using it for today. They're using it to continue to steal and trade others copyrighted works.
And so, Comcasts focus on that, while maybe not perfect and one that had some carryover impact on others..was targeted at the right thing.
Comcast and the other isp's didn't have the perfect solution. But it was superior to just terminating users connections. The real harm would come from that..in not allowing people access to the internet. We all have regulations we must follow in our daily lives. We drive to work..and have speed limits. Come to toll booths..and pay the price. What would be wrong is to say you can't drive on that road because you travel on it too much which is what simply terminating them would do.
I've always been for free and unlimited access. And felt that instead of terminating users..isp's should work towards having the tiers available to people who wanted them. And who were willing to pay for them.
What your posts the last few months haven't done is to address the needs of people like me and the vast majority of comcast users. We want our service to work..and work properly. We want our fast speeds..99% uptime..and to pay a fair price. We don't want to support the 5% who are using 50% of the bandwidth and causing the problems that they have in various areas when they start to utilize their p2p setups 24/7. While maybe not perfect..I support(ed) sandvine. And I think that the vast majority of users would also if they understood fully what was involved here.
Sometimes laws and rules that are in place are an inconvenience to many people. Even the law abiding ones. Sometimes I'm really in a hurry..and 30mph seems too slow to me. And sometimes if I wanted to use my connection for p2p for legitimate reasons..sandvine might have impacted me too inadvertently. But even so, I can recognize that sometimes..not everything is perfect. In laws or in life. And I recognize that the greater purpose was there to really help me..and the majority.
I would not fault comcast or any isp in this regard for their efforts. I'd maybe say that it could be made better..and to proceed in that regard.
But fault them..Criticize them to no end..and call for them to be fined?
No way Man.
Not for trying to help the average customer enjoy their service.
~Rick -- The Coyote captured the RR! Roadrunner Rick is now Comcastic! | |
|  |  |  |   funchords Robb Premium,MVM join:2001-03-11 Hillsboro, OR
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype
·Comcast
| Re: lol... Rick, I'm very glad you're trying to understand this. I do want to see Comcast punished for Sandvine, but it's almost a separate issue. While the blocking should be stopped, I'm not as sure that they should be punished for the blocking as much as they should for using Sandvine in secret and lying about it afterward.
I'm worried that you think that my efforts are "frantic," because I've always approached this with an open mind. I am determined not to let it lie, but I'm by no means desperate. If anyone has shown frantic behavior, it's Comcast.
said by Rick :On one hand, here you are saying that if people are interfering with others..throw the bastards off the network. On the other hand, for MONTHS now, we've read of your opposition to Comcast trying to do what they can to insure that all we users have a positive experience with our connections and to insure that this vast minority of people aren't taking down the network. Robb..let's face it. All the bandwidth hogs were the ones maxing out their p2p. That's who was doing it and who was causing the problems. And so, Comcasts efforts went towards regulating that..and only that by implementing sandvine. Was it a perfect solution? No. Because it could have some carry over impact on some who weren't abusing it and who were using p2p for legal means. But that isn't what the vast majority were and are using it for today. They're using it to continue to steal and trade others copyrighted works. And so, Comcasts focus on that, while maybe not perfect and one that had some carryover impact on others..was targeted at the right thing. So far, line by line, I can agree. But the next paragraph is different.
Comcast and the other isp's didn't have the perfect solution. But it was superior to just terminating users connections. The real harm would come from that..in not allowing people access to the internet. No, because the "real harm" was that people who used their connections legally and responsibility were thrown overboard -- and we couldn't even get tech support for it, because Sandvine was a secret from them, too.
I've always been for free and unlimited access. And felt that instead of terminating users..isp's should work towards having the tiers available to people who wanted them. And who were willing to pay for them. Comcast cannot offer that service because their networks aren't built for everyone. They're built for the 90% of people that want to download far more than they upload. Comcast still hasn't come to grips with that in a healthy way -- in fact, they won't even admit it is true. Instead of trying to shoehorn that 10% into their network, they really need to figure out an alternative.
What your posts the last few months haven't done is to address the needs of people like me and the vast majority of comcast users. I'm not running for CEO or anything. Comcast's hands are tied by the law, by its assurances in the past, and by the Internet standards.
I can criticize what it does without offering alternatives because Comcast is in this large-scale service business and, because of that, it has to accept something that economists call "freeloaders." These are people who ultimately will not be profitable. And while it is expected that they will try to limit the amount of freeloaders, they cannot break the law, their promises, or Internet Standards to do so.
We want our service to work..and work properly. We want our fast speeds..99% uptime..and to pay a fair price. We don't want to support the 5% who are using 50% of the bandwidth and causing the problems that they have in various areas when they start to utilize their p2p setups 24/7. This is a perfect example of what I mean. Comcast doesn't have to arrange their services in a way that allows 5% to capture 50% of a bandwidth pool. That they do so is a choice that is completely under their control.
They feel that they have to in order to compete with FIOS and advances in DSL. Fine, but it is no excuse to break the law, their promises, or Internet Standards.
While maybe not perfect..I support(ed) sandvine. And I think that the vast majority of users would also if they understood fully what was involved here. What do you support about Sandvine? It worked in secret, customer support didn't even know it was there. It used packet forgery and broke legitimate uses like Lotus Notes and legitimate file transfers. It was overzealous in that I couldn't upload 24/7 for months at a time. It didn't even have anything to do at all with Congestion! My own results, confirmed later by Max Planck researchers, and the analysis by the FCC, showed that it was pretty much around 24/7/365 without regard to the level of congestion.
Sometimes laws and rules that are in place are an inconvenience to many people. Even the law abiding ones. Sometimes I'm really in a hurry..and 30mph seems too slow to me. And sometimes if I wanted to use my connection for p2p for legitimate reasons..sandvine might have impacted me too inadvertently. But even so, I can recognize that sometimes..not everything is perfect. In laws or in life. And I recognize that the greater purpose was there to really help me..and the majority. By this regard, Comcast could pretty much replace "Sandvine P2P Policy Element" with "Thug Hitting P2P Users with Mallets" and feel justified because it was only inconveniencing a minority of users. After all, they're trying to "really help me..and the majority."
I would not fault comcast or any isp in this regard for their efforts. I'd maybe say that it could be made better..and to proceed in that regard.
But fault them..Criticize them to no end..and call for them to be fined?
No way Man.
Not for trying to help the average customer enjoy their service. Yes way, absolutely. Stupid is as stupid does. Even they are moving away from Sandvine, but they've yet to even admit that it was a mistake. And the thing they're moving to will bring another non-Standard set of incompatibilities that I intend to fully examine.
When Comcast agreed to provide Internet access, they agreed to abide by Internet Standards. These standards prevent the incompatibilities caused by stupid implementations such as Sandvine. If they don't like the standards, then it's an open process. By all means, get into the IETF and change them. Either that, or sell off the Internet access side of the business to someone who will abide by the rules. -- Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon HTTP is the new Bandwidth Hog...
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|  |  |  |  |   ptrowski Got Helix? Premium join:2005-03-14 Putnam, CT clubs: | Re: lol... As always Robb well spoken. | |
|  karlmarx
join:2006-09-18 Nashua, NH
·Fairpoint Communic..
| Dammit, the solution is EASY DON'T SELL WHAT YOU CAN'T PROVIDE. If you offer an all you can eat buffet, you can't complain if someone eats a lot. Simple as that. You ADVERTISE all you can eat, so why do you complain if someone eats a lot. The solution is quite simple. DON'T ADVERTISE ALWAYS ON INTERNET, or Don't sell bandwidth you can't provide. Either or works. If there is so much congestion on the cable networks, MAYBE it's because they are selling connections that are too fast. If the connection can only support 2mb/sec, then SELL 2mb/sec. -- The happiest countries are the most secular. The struggle AGAINST corporations is the struggle FOR humanity! | |
|  |  |  |  |  SilverSurfer
join:2007-08-19
| Re: Dammit, the solution is EASY said by en102 :But... that's the whole basis of the U.S. economy. Sell a business model that makes as much profit as possible with as little expense as possible. Selling a network with 2Mbps that 'MAY' /sarcasm Truer words were never uttered. | |
|  |  |  benc Premium join:2007-06-17 Glen Carbon, IL
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