Re: Isn't it obvious? in http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r13273770 en Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:59:36 EDT Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:59:36 EDT Re: Isn't it obvious? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13292550 JTRockville : That simply isn't true. Income taxes are NOT used to pay back revenue bonds, which is what most munis are funded by:

Karl Bode See Profile said it very well. Read up:
»/forum/n···13292420]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13292550 Fri, 29 Apr 2005 18:50:20 EDT Re: Isn't it obvious? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13289325 Minister : If a community votes to wire itself, it's not socialism. It's Democracy. If they shoved it down your throat, it would be socialism.

Your entire position as yet another free-market talking head is based entirely on one premise: Greed. Less regulation, less taxation, less baracades to you getting more money in your pocket.

Boiled down, all your entire philosphy is based on is GREED. (sometimes fear)

Greed isn't a policy.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13289325 Fri, 29 Apr 2005 11:48:43 EDT Re: Isn't it obvious? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13288315 Gunslinger03 : This is a really simply concept, and the last post I am going to waste my time making on this one: If the muni cannot cover its bills with enough income the taxpayer will fill the gap. The taxpayer also has no way to ensure some of their tax revenue, city fees, etc., are not somehow getting secretly funneled into it. But unlike a private enterprise held accountable only from revenues by people that want the service, everyone that pays taxes would be tied into a muni.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13288315 Fri, 29 Apr 2005 09:09:17 EDT Re: Isn't it obvious? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13288284 Gunslinger03 : The truth hurts socialists.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13288284 Fri, 29 Apr 2005 09:00:30 EDT Re: Isn't it obvious? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13285848 SpitefulCrow :
said by Harry ball:

Your a commi so is the other guy for muni broadband. The guy lives in NY, liberal, clinton lover, gore tree hugger, should i go on.:mad:
Get stuffed. Stupid rednecks.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13285848 Thu, 28 Apr 2005 21:51:55 EDT Re: Isn't it obvious? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13284449 JTRockville : I'm not trying to twist your words. I'm trying to clarify: tax revenue is NOT used to pay back bonds for municipal networks. Income from selling services pays back the bonds.

Using your words, I could say "taxpayers pay off cable company debt", since most cable company subscribers are taxpayers.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13284449 Thu, 28 Apr 2005 19:08:00 EDT Re: Isn't it obvious? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13284355 anon : Your a commi so is the other guy for muni broadband. The guy lives in NY, liberal, clinton lover, gore tree hugger, should i go on.:mad:]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13284355 Thu, 28 Apr 2005 18:55:11 EDT Re: Isn't it obvious? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13283878 anon : i always post with this name so i dont know how anonymous it is..... and i guess you didnt get my point or maybe you just dont like to admit that you might be doing the same thing albeit not as much as the one i gave an example of there]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13283878 Thu, 28 Apr 2005 17:48:17 EDT Re: Isn't it obvious? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13283241 Gunslinger03 :
said by Minister See Profile:

Smaller government is more manageable and more directly accountable.
I agree. So why make it larger by giving it the power over a broadband network?

said by Minister See Profile:

Also, if they're competing with SBC, they'll be less influenced by their lobbyists because loyalties will lie elsewhere (like to the people)
They problem is they cannot compete. This is because they are funded by the taxpayer who has little recourse--and because they have the money of the taxpayer they are not forced into being innovative. They can bury costs of rollout, upgrade, and maintenance in your taxes. Sure you can vote them out, but if a crooked politician has enough money they will get in office.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13283241 Thu, 28 Apr 2005 16:25:01 EDT Re: Isn't it obvious? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13282030 Minister : Smaller government is more manageable and more directly accountable.

Also, if they're competing with SBC, they'll be less influenced by their lobbyists because loyalties will lie elsewhere (like to the people)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13282030 Thu, 28 Apr 2005 13:46:22 EDT Re: Isn't it obvious? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13280090 Gunslinger03 : So if the big corporations have such a big influence on government, why again would you want this corrupt government running your broadband network?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13280090 Thu, 28 Apr 2005 09:08:48 EDT Re: Isn't it obvious? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13280085 Gunslinger03 : Twist the words any way you want. The taxpayers pay the bonds.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13280085 Thu, 28 Apr 2005 09:07:06 EDT Re: Isn't it obvious? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13280073 Gunslinger03 : This is about as ignorant as it gets folks. If you want to add your baseless generalizations to the discussion, atleast post with a registered name coward.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13280073 Thu, 28 Apr 2005 09:06:05 EDT Re: Isn't it obvious? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13279234 anon : like when i see your name and say everyone with gun in their name is a gunloving redneck..... i might be right in some cases but not all and its pretty stupid to start assuming like that ;)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13279234 Thu, 28 Apr 2005 03:13:45 EDT Re: Isn't it obvious? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13279226 anon : of course he would.... with a name like gunslinger its not very likely that he would EVER be able to admit that he might have spoken too soon ;) i think muni broadband sounds fine and its kinda sad to see the big corporations have such big influence on politics that they can get them to actually ban muni broadband when they dont even want to serve them anyway]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13279226 Thu, 28 Apr 2005 03:11:35 EDT Re: Isn't it obvious? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13279218 anon : yes the government cant run ANYTHING and obviously the corporations are doing a VERY good job......]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13279218 Thu, 28 Apr 2005 03:07:07 EDT Re: Isn't it obvious? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13277439 SpitefulCrow :
said by Gunslinger03 See Profile:

How is a muni going to cover costs by rolling out a billion dollar network in an unsuitable area? How is the muni going to adapt? And if the muni ever did make a profit, would you see a dime of it?

I am aware governments bail out private ventures, and that is yet another unfortunate example of how they abuse their power. We could go on for days about the wasteful bailouts politicians give whenever it is time to grandstand or buy votes.
Define an "unsuitable area."
Then, would you have opposed government aid in rolling out POTS copper to these areas 100 years ago? ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13277439 Wed, 27 Apr 2005 22:05:31 EDT Re: Isn't it obvious? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13276346 JTRockville :
said by Gunslinger03 See Profile:

Munis issue bonds, the taxpayers eventually pay the bonds. Like I have said before, give me one example where this was not the case.
Actually, every muni is an example where taxpayers have not paid the bonds. Well, actually, rate payers are usually taxpayers also, so in essence you're right. But funds for bond repayment come from selling the service, not collecting taxes.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13276346 Wed, 27 Apr 2005 20:03:50 EDT Re: Isn't it obvious? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13276313 JTRockville :
said by Gunslinger03 See Profile:

And if the muni ever did make a profit, would you see a dime of it?
Of course not! If a muni is making a profit, and they've already paid back the bonds, covered current costs and future investments, then the next step is lower prices.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13276313 Wed, 27 Apr 2005 20:00:32 EDT Re: Isn't it obvious? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13275889 Gunslinger03 : How is a muni going to cover costs by rolling out a billion dollar network in an unsuitable area? How is the muni going to adapt? And if the muni ever did make a profit, would you see a dime of it?

I am aware governments bail out private ventures, and that is yet another unfortunate example of how they abuse their power. We could go on for days about the wasteful bailouts politicians give whenever it is time to grandstand or buy votes.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13275889 Wed, 27 Apr 2005 19:15:00 EDT Re: Isn't it obvious? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13275811 Gunslinger03 : How does it harm the argument?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13275811 Wed, 27 Apr 2005 19:07:16 EDT Re: Isn't it obvious? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13275781 Gunslinger03 : Munis issue bonds, the taxpayers eventually pay the bonds. Like I have said before, give me one example where this was not the case.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13275781 Wed, 27 Apr 2005 19:04:20 EDT Re: Isn't it obvious? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13275286 JTRockville : Don't forget: the purpose of a muni is to provide service and cover costs. Contrary to private corporation assessments, a muni that does not show a profit is not a failure, as long as the muni is able to cover costs and pay back bonds.

By the way, governments sometimes bail out private ventures, and taxpayers sometimes subsidize private ventures.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13275286 Wed, 27 Apr 2005 18:08:38 EDT Re: Isn't it obvious? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13274906 SpitefulCrow :
said by Gunslinger03 See Profile:

said by SpitefulCrow See Profile:

If broadband is such a big deal to all you socialists in rural areas, and you do not take the initiative to move elsewhere to get it, you have no one to blame but yourselves. There are lots of people in your area that are happy without it, and they will be pissed when your muni forces them to pay for it too.
I'm not a socialist and I'm not in a rural area (I live in the New York metro area, thank you very much). Calling anyone who supports municipal broadband a socialist, even if it's only in limited cases, does nothing but harm your argument.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13274906 Wed, 27 Apr 2005 17:26:56 EDT Re: Isn't it obvious? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13274641 Minister :
quote:
But the government doesn't pay for its failures--the taxpayer does.
A growing number of the munis are using non-tax based financing (private, etc)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13274641 Wed, 27 Apr 2005 16:55:28 EDT Re: Isn't it obvious? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13274350 Gunslinger03 :
said by SpitefulCrow See Profile:

How clever of you. You've taken a macroeconomics 101 course at some college, I presume.
This is actually a microeconomic issue. You have never taken a microeconomics 101 course at some college, I presume.

said by SpitefulCrow See Profile:

The private sector does not have the motivation to make their services universally available.
It's not about "motivation." It's about profit and loss. If a company loses money they go under, if the muni loses money they fleece the taxpayer. To say that entrepreneurs do not have motivation is wholly ignorant.

said by SpitefulCrow See Profile:

The government isn't efficient enough to maintain massive infrastructure like a nationwide network or even one for a large metropolitan area. However, small towns that have started municipal access networks have seen great success.
How can they not see success? Afterall they have the taxpayer to bail them out. And if the muni was not successful do you think your local politicians would admit it when they can just raise taxes and fees?

said by SpitefulCrow See Profile:

So here's how it should work:
Let the little towns that wouldn't be profitable to the huge telcos run munis.

So if they are not profitable to the private sector they will not be profitable to the government either. But the government doesn't pay for its failures--the taxpayer does.

said by SpitefulCrow See Profile:

The telcos can then focus on providing better and faster service in major metropolitan areas to justify rate hikes and can also reinvest more in their core networks while maintaining a profit since they would then have substantially less last-mile to maintain out in the sticks. The federal government will never get involved, it'd be done entirely at the local level. Everybody wins.
I have been referring to municipal government. And when you get municipal government (just like any other level of government) involved everyone does not win. In fact, everyone loses equally. Again, if a private/public company sucks and no one purchases their products, or they roll out a billion dollar network to a community of 5000, they or their investors suffer a loss. If a government municipal network sucks and no one purchases their products, or they rolled out a billion dollar network to a community of 5000, the do not lose. They raise taxes.

If broadband is such a big deal to all you socialists in rural areas, and you do not take the initiative to move elsewhere to get it, you have no one to blame but yourselves. There are lots of people in your area that are happy without it, and they will be pissed when your muni forces them to pay for it too.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13274350 Wed, 27 Apr 2005 16:18:42 EDT Re: Isn't it obvious? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13273770 SpitefulCrow : How clever of you. You've taken a macroeconomics 101 course at some college, I presume.

The private sector does not have the motivation to make their services universally available.
The government isn't efficient enough to maintain massive infrastructure like a nationwide network or even one for a large metropolitan area. However, small towns that have started municipal access networks have seen great success.
So here's how it should work:
Let the little towns that wouldn't be profitable to the huge telcos run munis. The telcos can then focus on providing better and faster service in major metropolitan areas to justify rate hikes and can also reinvest more in their core networks while maintaining a profit since they would then have substantially less last-mile to maintain out in the sticks. The federal government will never get involved, it'd be done entirely at the local level. Everybody wins. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13273770 Wed, 27 Apr 2005 15:08:07 EDT Re: Isn't it obvious? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13273525 Gunslinger03 : It should be obvious, but most of the people sheeple socialists on this board think government is the solution to every broadband problem. This is because there are not many good economics classes in our government-run schools. Coincidence?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13273525 Wed, 27 Apr 2005 14:39:41 EDT Isn't it obvious? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13273104 Damon85 :
Integrate the fact that incumbents are attempting to ban towns like Hudson from wiring themselves with fiber, and what is the choice for rural America?


Stay in the dark -- or move into an urban area where they can take your money for cheap. They want your money, but you can't expect them to put forth too much effort to get it.

The bag of chips is just out of arms reach and they're too fat to get off the couch. The bag of chips, therefore, is commanded to move closer...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13273104 Wed, 27 Apr 2005 13:49:22 EDT